Self-Defense Zone: Crime Prevention & Self-Defense Forums

Boogie Man · Moderator Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 43

In the never ending debate over sport vs. survival I'll offer up a few more
thoughts. Many people claim that if it works in the ring against a conditioned opponent then it will work in the street. I suppose this is true at some level- if your a good ring fighter then you'll probably have some firepower for the street. I have no doubt that Mike Tyson or Evander Holyfield could mess up most people's faces.
But the abilites of champions should not be of concern to us. How should the average man or woman train? Should they compete in Thai Boxing, or NHB's fights?
Many people point to the small size of Royce Gracie and his father Helio- these small men fought men much bigger then themselves and won. People seem to overlook the fact that despite their small size they have a lifetime of training behind them. They didn't study an art for a few years and then fight. Royce had 20+ years of training behind him when he entered the UFC.
Here's some more things to consider. The street is different from the ring because in the ring your prepared for the fight - the street is almost always sudden violence. Therefore you have no time to develop a strategy or reflect on what's working or what's not - you have to get
into action.

The goal of the ring is to win - decision, ko, sumbmission. The goal on the
street is to survive! Knocking someone out of the way and escaping can achieve that survival goal, however it will never allow you to win a competition.

All sports forbid certain techniques ( for the safety of those competing) - if
you want a good system of survival get the rule sheets and learn to break all the rules - now you have a system of street defense.

While sport techniques can be used to good effect on the street (by a competent person) they are not the best way to deal with survival-defense situations.

Goat · Guest

i used to do competetion karate, then when i realised it was useless on the street switched to aikido, never regretted it.

Guest · Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 12:13 am Post subject:

- ground surfaces
- hidden weapons
- objects in the environment
- multiples
- objectives
- mentality (already mentioned)

You've found aikido to be suitable for street?

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ash_wednesday · Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject:

For me, it was never which style was better. For me it was which fighter was better. I wouldn't use the whole sport or martial art to help me in a fight. For the most part I would used parts of which sport or style to help me fight.
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Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject:

Amen brother. Just like the UFC. People thought it was going to be style vs. style, and it was at first. But once it evolved a little, people all started to cross-train and understood they need skills in each domain, and an overall fight strategy.

It doesn't matter if you call it puter kepala, kaiten nage, or underhook and pike, or if you think you're doing kung fu or krav maga. It matters that you're using it at the right moment and doing it right to take the guy down.
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ash_wednesday · Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:26 am Post subject:

Yep. Kickboxing is kickboxing which is awsome. But in a street fight, I rather use what works, weither it be a knee to the groin, kick to the chest or run away. I like to use bits of everything that i have learned, not just from kickboxing.
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Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: Why not street?

A story told by SBGi President Matt Thornton:

"Forgive me for venting a bit. . .if this is old news for you, I hear that. No worries.

I was asked recently why I choose to ALWAYS emphasize the fact that street vs sport is usually a false premise. As opposed to placing emphasis on the difference.

It's a good question, and here is my answer.

The delivery systems always transcend the venue, and the delivery systems do not change.

Said another way: Plans change upon contact and the circumstances will dictate the tactics. But YOUR root skill in the delivery systems will always remain a constant. As does your conditioning. And neither can be faked. Once the fight is on, it is that root skill in the delivery systems, and your body itself (conditioning), that will see you through.

In other words, almost all the key escapes from head and arm position in Judo & BJJ are exactly the same, regardless of whether it is a gi match, a no gi match, MMA, or in a streetfight in a parking lot somewhere.

Here is a clear example of what I am speaking to.

A few Months ago at a seminar in Canada we had a more traditional Gung Fu advocate visit on Sunday. When he walked in we happened to be working on headlock, and head and arm escapes. (Although during the weekend we had already covered the bases of stand up, clinch, etc.)

During lunch this person happened to be sitting next to me, and he began asking a lot of very leading questions about street vs sport. . .and why would we spend time on a technique like the one prior to lunch when in reality you 'never' want to be on the ground in a "streetfight", etc. Port2002 may remember this conversation well as he happened to be sitting across from me as this guy went on about the all the differences between sports and combat, etc.

I explained how indeed one wouldn't want to be on the ground in a fight. In fact, you don't want to be in a fight at all! However, you may find yourself there and as such better know how to escape. And the escapes don't magically change for that position on asphalt and with punches. They remain the same.

He was not convinced, and was very confident that he would A) never be taken down into such a position, and B) if he where he would escape easily by biting, gouging, and using his streetfighting techniques.

I asked him if he had tested that theory? He was a little taken back by that question, and so I told him we would test it first hand when we get back to the Gym. Because you don't want to just ass-ume such a thing as that.

When we got back I gently put a head and arm on him, he tried to bite and I pushed his forehead up in such a way as to make that impossible. I also told him I may be wearing a leather jacket. . .so don't rely on such a thing. He reached for my face. . .something ALL grapplers are used to from newbies stuck in this position. I just ducked my head and placed my thumb on his eye. . .something he could not defend from his position. And of course, he was stuck there.

Predictably, he stated I was just too big. So I had another Instructor that was present there hold him down. (Mike Sweeney). Mike has a SOLID purple belt game, as well as all the other delivery systems. . .but he is also about 100lbs lighter then me. And a good 70lbs lighter then this guy.

Of course Mike was able to hold him down easily.

So much for escaping.

He then said ok, but he would never be taken down into that position. And a second of so later Mike threw a headlock on him standing, tossed him, and landed in a solid head and arm.

So much for staying standing.

Then he wanted to try it. After all, it must just be an impossible position to escape from!?

Again predictably, Mike escaped within a second or so, and had his back and a rear naked choke. He did this a few times to him if I remember correctly.

At this point the gentleman had to concede that he had a lot of misconceptions, and poor assumptions. Based on the reality of what just took place with a person 70 lbs lighter then him.

Then, instead of smiling at the brilliance of seeing the truth for the first time, he asked me if I could teach him the moves that Mike used right now. As if I could offer him one or two moves that would magically allow him to do the same thing.

I then explained that Mike could do what he did only because he had put in HUNDREDS of HOURS of ALIVE, athletic training and drilling.

In other words. . .SPORTS!

He didn't like the answer. . but was unable to argue it based on the truth of the events he had just experienced first hand.

The moral of the story?

The venue changes, but "YOUR" root skill in the delivery systems is ALWAYS a constant. As are the training methods.

One of the big dangers with people who "claim" to be motivated primarily by self defense is that they will willfully ignore this fact. And as such, they never really learn how to fight, or develop their body as a whole.

When you meet these people face to face, as I have on many occasions. . .this fact becomes pretty self evident. And it also becomes painfully obvious how a HEALTHY athletic approach would be a thousand times better for such people. They would be happier, more confident, and really learn to fight, if they would simply lay down that fantasy and train like an athlete.

But there are enough people who will provide the answer one would like so as to make avoiding such reality possible. It's not a healthy approach, but it's a popular one. And it usually results in training that is predicated on pain compliance, tag, and psychobable. None of which will likely stop an aggressive and angry attacker bent on truly hurting you.

That is just one of the multiple reasons why I as an individual always speak to the need for athletic training. . .and don't play into the fallacies often reported regarding street vs sport.

And that is also just one of the many reasons why all the SBGi coaches are required to have a very high level of skill in the delivery systems. With a minimum of purple belt for SBGi Coaches, and at the Full Instructor level brown or black in BJJ. . .along with SOLID stand up, clinch, MMA, weapons defense, and a clear understanding of self defense musts based on awareness, common sense, street smarts, and maturity.

When it comes to real self defense a high level of skill in the delivery systems is NOT optional. It's required.

This does not mean you need to become what Tom Oberhue would call "a meathead". IE, a stereotypical bad guy jock that measures himself based on who he can beat up. Far from it! You could be a housewife, a child in 4th grade, a lawyer working 50 hour work weeks behind a desk, a family man with five kids to support, a college students whose priority needs to be study, an artist looking for forms of self expression, whatever.

It also does not mean you have to lay YOUR trip on others about the need for public competition, pushing yourself, etc. Rather, YOU do what YOU need to do, and with compassion and love help others do what they need to do. All the while staying true to YOURself.

That requires a ruthless bent towards introspection. Are you telling the truth to your students, or giving them what they want to hear. Are you laying YOUR trip on your students, or helping them navigate theirs?

It means you have to be honest with yourself about where you are at, what you want, why you want it, and who your laying it on. .. .and then. . . train smart, train healthy, train Alive, and take care of your TEMPLE.

As Desnudo has stated: 'We are beyond street, this is off road baby!'

www.straightblastgym.com"
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crackhead · Registered User Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 20

I train for combat and sport (jujitsu and judo)

taozen · Newbie Joined: 05 Jan 2007 Posts: 1

You fight like you train....
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Tomas · Newbie Joined: 19 Jan 2007 Posts: 4

I think the best way is to train for combat and sports if you have the time. Krav Maga and BJJ is a good combination. A self-defense art will give you the proper mental mindset and that’s a good start.
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Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:51 am Post subject:

Dude, your blogspot link doesn't work.
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kfcfan · Registered User Joined: 25 Jan 2008 Posts: 25

Back centuries ago it would have been completely for survival and defense. These days many just do it for sport, recognition, and to have a way to work out.
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