Self-Defense Zone: Crime Prevention & Self-Defense Forums

Rick · Registered User Joined: 19 Dec 2008 Posts: 8

Hi all,
Im Rick, i run another self defence forum (which im not going to link t at the risk of sounding like a spammer) and i stumbled upon this site.

i notice the user base is mosty (if not all) from the US, and i was wondering if many of you guys have heard of, and/or utilise 'the fence'?

i searched around on the forum a bit, and didnt notice any posts on it. over here in the UK we regard it as possibly THE most important tool in self defence training (obviously after avoidence and awareness)

if you havent heard of it, perhaps you could look into it?
im no expert myself, but i will be happy to answer any of your questions regarding this if you are unsure as best i can.

books and DVD's are available by a few people, the best IMO would be either Geoff Thompson, or Al Peasland's products on the subject. im sure a quick google would turn up something by either of the 2.

look forward to your anwers, thanks.

Rick.

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:31 pm Post subject:

The expression "The Fence" originates with Geoff Thompson. Most North American self-defencers know of him through the internet but I don't think many buy his materials.

Here, the concept is often called the "nonviolent posture" (NVP) and associated with Tony Blauer of Montreal, and a student of his, Richard Dimitri. A lot of other people teach it as well, under various other names. Basically it's the use of the hands-forward position to defuse verbal aggression and escalating hostility, intercept incoming shots or grabs, and also as a platform for open-handed pre-emptive strikes.

If you're in the UK, you should check out Karl Tanswell, the UK Director of Straightblast Gym, and creator of STAB, one of the better knife defence programs out there.
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Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:38 pm Post subject:

When you see some of the guys here talk about the "defusion stage" or "sucker punch concepts", they're referring to concepts akin to the fence.
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Rick · Registered User Joined: 19 Dec 2008 Posts: 8

yes, it does indeed originate from Geoff (just the name. the concept itself had been around nameless for many years). personally, i prefer Al Peaslands take on it, i 'got it' much quicker from watching his version. imo, its explained much better.
the fence is much more than you described though. the 'hands forward' position you speak of is merely one aspect of the fence, and is used for mere seconds in a real situation. it is called the 'controlling fence'.
as a self defence tool, it is very mis-represented within the self defence community.

for example (again, im no expert on this sunject, but i'll have a go lol) you have the passive fence first. this is to control your space in a way that is unnoticeable to others.
the controlling fence is the next stage up, which is visible and clear to your aggressor. it is used as a 'stop gap' between passive fence, and wherever you wish to go next, which would either be aggressive, or submissive.
aggressive fence is used to give you aggressor a massive adrenal dump, and then proceed to 'top it up' with ballooning, posturing, and verbal to, initially, make them 'freeze up' and eventually go into 'flight mode'. this is the best way to avoid physical conflict in most situations, especially multiple attacker situations.
then you have submissive fence. this is the 'sucker punch concepts' you spoke of.

please bear in mind i did fencework absolutely no justice in that explanation, that was the best i could do lol.

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject:

You may have to explain a bit more specifically and concretely for us to really get it. But based on what you've said, it's quite different from the practices here. No one WANTS to give the aggressor an adrenal dump simply because they would rather hit him unawares from a nonviolent posture.

Other than that difference, I think it's probably very similar to Blauer's material.
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Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject:

Another very influential American self-defenser, Paul Vunak (JKD Concepts), put it this way. "Don't shove, don't cuss. Hit him fast, hit him hard, and don't stop hitting."
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Rick · Registered User Joined: 19 Dec 2008 Posts: 8

ok, i will try lol.

passive fence:
this is the first position, when there is no threat. (when in code yellow according to colour coded awareness charts) basically this fence is anything that keeps your hands in front of your body, which unbeknownst to the aggressor, controls your space. this could be anything from playing with your wedding ring, picking callouses on your hands, the 'thinking man' pose with one arm across your chest holding the other arm up and resting your chin on it, etc etc. this controls your space in a non-challenging way and should be used with EVERYONE, for practice if nothing else. i use this on my wife, my friends, colleagues, aswell as strangers that approach me etc.

controlling fence:
this is the 'traditional' position that you speak of. hands up controlling the space, im sure you know the drill. this position is used for a very small amount of time to decide what you wish to do next. usually seconds.

submissive fence:
this is the position you spoke of to draw in the attacker. a submissive posture is used, along with submissive verbal, ie: i dont want any trouble, etc etc. and then comes the pre-emptive strike.
in this position, the brain is engaged by asking a question such as 'whats the problem?' or 'why are you picking on me?' to engage the brain and relax the aggressor, leading him to feel he has already won, and letting his guard down to ensure a better chance of KO.
from this position, 99.9% of the time, it WILL go physical, ie: you will knock him out, or you will be fighting. i have yet to hear of a situation being diffused using this method.

aggressive fence:
this is the best way of diffusing a situation before it goes physical, and when other avenues (apart from submissive fence) have been exhausted.
basically the idea is to explode from the fence, pushing your aggressor as far as possible, and stepping back yourself to create a bigger gap. this makes him think that you pushed him further. this causes a massive adrenaline rush in his body, which he will usually mistake for a feeling of fear.
as soon as you push him, you 'balloon' making yourself bigger by spreading out your arms, puffing your chest out, standing tall, etc. one of the effects of adrenaline is tunnel vision. the eyes focus more on the danger, causing it to appear bigger. from the aggressors perspective, you now look 10ft tall and 6ft wide. not someone he would want to mess with.
from here your looking to 'top up' his adrenaline further to force that fear response, and prompt him to reconsider, and retreat.
this is done by shouting obscenities (you have to talk 'street' to be believed. ie: swear and use incredibly bad and intimidating language. if someone was shouting 'i'll get you, you bloody rascal' you wouldnt really be scared lol)
this is backed up with physical intimidation, like 'stalking' ie: pacing side to side like a lion does when eyeing up its prey. this is something most animals do to intimidate, and all animals (including humans) know what it means, and what to translate it into, ie: fear.
obviously the aggressor does not want to look a fool in front of the crowds that have probably gathered etc, or feel like a fool in front of himself, so now you need to give him an 'out'. this is simply an honourable way of exiting the situation without fighting.
the out that is most common, and most effective, is when he has friends etc with him, backing him up etc. you move onto them "you f****** stay out of it or i'll f****** batter you aswell! take this piece of s*** out of my sight before i f****** kill him"
you have now installed fear in his friends also, and have assigned them a 'job', to remove their friend before they all get hurt. they will be glad of this 'out' and normally take it. and the aggressor gets an 'out' in the form of his mate 'dragging' him away.
many times i have seen the friend let go, and the aggressor carrys on shouting etc, whilst still appearing to be dragged away, even though they arent being Very Happy

personally, the aggressive fence is always my first option where possible (unless they are really big, or an experienced fighter and know how to control fear, then i go submissive, and pre-emptive) and it has worked for me before. it has also worked for many of my friends. i havent heard of many unsuccessful usages of this tactic.

obviously, if they move forward at any point after the push, either you werent convincing enough, or they are fairly experienced with adrenal release and controlling fear. at this point, you will be fighting. so go straight in with everything you have as aggressively and violently as possible.

if you wish to train this method, again, get either Geoff thompsons 'the fence' or (my preferred option) get Al Peaslands 'fence concepts'.

dont think you can read it here and get it. you have to see it to understand it, and you have to train it to use it.

hope that explains it well enough
Confused

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:00 am Post subject:

All versions except the Aggressive Fence are taught by North American instructors such as Blauer. But the North Americans strongly denounce "dominance displays" such as pushing, chest-puffing, etc. saying that they'd rather strike completely without warning. They actually want to avoid giving the attacker an adrenaline dump for that very reason.

The training is sometimes called "natural stance awareness", and includes things like the "third baseman's drill"--an analogy from baseball where a trainee cycles through various hand positions including scratching the back of one's hand, "See? over there--", "I dunno", "easy, buddy", etc. and the partner sucker-punches him at any point.

The phrase "submissive strategy" is also commonly used.

A lot of it is drilling scenarios with verbal and physical escalation, and maintaining one's own tactical solidity and behavioural congruence. Rather than threatening and intimidating the guy, we tend to make every effort to de-escalate until the very moment we pop them one in the eye and start drilling him. Frankly, if the aggressive fence works and the guy backs off, they weren't really a predator and could have been talked out of the fight anyway. Look into Konrad Lorenz's research on predatory vs. dominance-type aggression. The last thing we want to do is to challenge the aggressor's ego and give him "something to prove".

I noticed in some vids, Geoff Thompson touches the aggressor on the shoulder, etc. As a licensed psychologist who has done extensive research on the management of aggressive behaviour in the clinical setting, I have to say this is just really, really bad practice. A jacked-up, pissed off guy will usually react adversely to being touched.
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Rick · Registered User Joined: 19 Dec 2008 Posts: 8

well, im not about argueing etc, so this is to be taken positively in the spirit of debate (i know how most forums turn into bashing contests, thats not for me)
but Geoff has had hundreds upon hundreds of encounters in violent situations. working as security/doorman in nightclubs in the the most violent city in europe.
IMO, nothing beats experiance. even theory.

saying that though, there is probably a different mentality towards violence over here. a very high percentage of youths over here intentionally go out to get drunk, and fight. its a part of their evening, i understand that doesnt happen too much over there in comparision (per head of population wise)
so perhaps it is to do with the sociology of it, rather than the psychology?

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:08 am Post subject:

It's conceivable that the Aggressive Fence has been adapted to neutralize aggression from "recreational" fighters who may lack the intent and seriousness of what would be considered a "serious" attacker here.

Here, we use the terms "emotional climate training" ("ECT" - Blauer) and "woofing" (Peyton Quinn I think, or perhaps Marc MacYoung). "Woofing" is where a person tries to intimidate another by yelling, cursing, using racial slurs, shoving, typical "dominance" body language, etc. We train ourselves to deal with woofing but not to do it ourselves--to be desensitized to it and to respond to it strategically--it's not considered strategically sound. That acclimatization process is called ECT.

It's so much a part of our thinking that I'm downright surprised to hear any self-defencer say that one should push and yell. I thought I had an idea of what Geoff Thompson taught because his material has been sold here for well over a decade. Obviously there are some bits that still elude me.

BTW, Tony Blauer does work in the UK, I think he has some certified instructors down there. And Karl Tanswell (UK Director of Straight Blast Gym) is a great teacher and has some of the best realistic knife defence in the world.
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Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:10 am Post subject:

Is the intent of the Aggressive fence primarily to intimidate the guy and just get him to back off?
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Rick · Registered User Joined: 19 Dec 2008 Posts: 8

yes thats correct. the idea is to avoid the fight, rather than start it.
if you go submissive, then you will definately be fighting.
the aggressive fence is statistically as successful as the pre-empt. so why KO someone when you can diffuse the situation and not have to resort to violence?

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject:

Here's the North American view on the issue: http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/Saving%20Face.doc

Not that there aren't folks who teach your approach. Now that I think of it, your posts bring back memories of the writings of Marc "The Animal" MacYoung, a popular self-defence author in the 80's and 90's who still runs a highly-subscribed website/listserv and taught what he considered the the effective ways of asserting dominance and intimidating people. But he's the exception rather than the rule.
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Rick · Registered User Joined: 19 Dec 2008 Posts: 8

not the aggressive mode i spoke of, but diffusion all the same, which is better than fighting in any self defence situation Very Happy

another advantage of aggressive fence is that, even if they do step forward to pursue the physical, they are already overflowing with that fear feeling, so they wont have the same aggression and intent as yourself. often, this alone can win the situation, because in their minds, they have lost before it began.

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:12 am Post subject:

I guess my point in linking to Darren Laur's article was that it's widely held here that if you challenge someone's ego in front of his friends, you precipitate a violent confrontation that might otherwise not have been forthcoming, because you force him to have to take measures to save face.
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