Self-Defense Zone: Crime Prevention & Self-Defense Forums

Mike20910 · Newbie Joined: 22 Nov 2006 Posts: 1

Hi folks. Last night while walking home I was accosted by a group of about 10 teenage boys. As I passed the last one, he sucker-punched me in the groin. Fortunately his punch was weak, his aim was off, and my winter coat blocked most if it. Still, I felt it.

I told him that what he did was stupid, but I walked away from their taunts because I'm not dumb enough to take on a large group of teenage boys. I've had 5 years of Krav Maga training and know enough to know that while I could whip one or two of them, the rest would take me out. Besides, some of them might have been armed.

Fortunately they did not follow me, but if they had attacked, I would have been in a jam. Now I'm thinking about carrying a weapon, and am debating knife versus collapsible steel baton. Does anyone here have an opinion on this?

In retrospect, my mistake was complacency. I should have looked each kid in the eye as I passed him. Better yet -- and I'll do this next time -- if I see a group of black teens headed my way (sorry, but where I live, most violent crime is committed by black teens), I'll cross the street. I'd rather hurt someone's feelings than get hurt myself.

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject:

Fighting ten guys is always going to be tough, no matter what bullshit anyone may say about people in gangs always being cowards, etc. Well, true as this is, ganging up serves these cowards well.

You're right about the awareness issue. You should never let them get close. If they do, run. The experience of self-defensers in the JKD community (and I'd bet in KM too) has been that when you run, the group while pursuing you gets "spread out" a bit, allowing you to take shots at one or two guys (who incidentally are running into your hits) and bolt again before the others swarm you. Run and hit and run and hit and run and hit and run...

Knife and baton would both serve you well in a multiple assailant situation. However, knife requires that you be willing to really engage, and seriously cut these guys. If baton is legal to carry in your jurisdiction, I'd consider that. I personally carry a tac folder but never have used it for self-defence. I'm in a very safe area, and everyday carry of collapsible baton on the street is not legal here. Carrying a blade for self-protection requires high levels of personal maturity, training, and knowledge of the legal and ethical implications. A knife is deadly force--the force you use must parallel the danger you're in. Striking the limbs of a gang of punks when they're chasing you is easily defensible. Go for the thighs. You can drop them easily with a baton that way and you're not likely to get in for more than you bargained for (e.g. if you were to accidentally clock one of them in the head you could easily go to prison where you are going to be somebody's girlfriend for a very long time.)
_________________
blowjoblessons@gmail.com

GIRLS ONLY! Guaranteed results! FREE FACIAL or PEARL NECKLACE with every lesson!

vietdao · Registered User Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 14

Mike,

Like you, I have studied the martial arts for some time and frequently train fighting both single and multiple attackers. In my job, I work with a lot of rough kids, and sometimes the martial arts come in handy. First, I'm glad you understand that fighting ten guys is an absolutely stupid thing to do.... period. Laughing

I've looked at a lot of these forums, and most of these guys obviously have done more kung fu movie watching than they have actual training. Unfortunately, as you already know, stuff happens and sometimes we have to fight for our lives to get out of really tough situation. When that happens, a weapon can be a very good self defense tool.

Okay, let's look at your choice of weaponry. You said you were choosing between a knife or a baton...

When considering a weapon like this you have to ask yourself a few questions.

1.) Is it practical? First, a knife is a close range weapon, and if a gang of guys are teaming up on you, a knife can slow you down unless your very efficient and extremely quick. So you, have to ask yourself, how good are you with a knife? Personally, I would not use a knife unless I was a fast runner, and had a lot of places to hide. Then I may try to pick them off one at a time. With a baton, you have to ask the same thing, How good are you with that weapon. Batons have a longer range, but they are also easier to take away than a knife. Again, with a baton, I would probably want to run to get them in somewhat of a straight line, and then pick them off one by one. This is a lot easier with three or maaaybeee four guys, but when your dealing with ten guys, I think you can agree that there are too many factors that can get you quickly beat up using either of these. Also, if you drop any of these weapons, and one of those guys picks it up, you've got EVEN MORE trouble on your hands.

2.) Are you trying fighting to the death? I sure hope not, unless your trying to go to jail. And if your not trying to fight to the death, a knife is definitely not a good choice. I am not very familiar with Krav Maga, but in my training most knife strikes are meant to kill or mortally wound. Even with experience, I know that I still slip sometimes and hit a guy in the too hard in the face or accidentally in the throat or groin. That's just human nature. When your trying to defend yourself and a person is moving around you are going to sometimes strike harder than you mean to. How true is that in a real fight? How easy is it to fatally wound someone when you are defending youself against 10 guys? On the other hand, a baton is a better choice as a non-lethal weapon, but you still have to consider the fact that between 10 guys your weapon has a good chance of being taken and used against you.

Overall, I wouldn't use either one. If you are fighting multiple opponents you want to be able to take them out ASAP so that you can get out of there and call the police.

Personally, I would use something like a strong pepper spray. First, it's cheaper than buying most batons or knives. Second, it can be accessed quickly, and can administered on multiple opponents at one time. It's also small and light weight which makes it really hard to take away. Most importantly, it will drop any person within seconds, giving you time to get away, which is what you want, right?

I've got cop friends that live and die by this stuff, and I personally carry some on me at all times (haven't had too use it so far thank goodness) Wink

. However, if I were to find myself in a serious jam with a bunch of guys trying to jump me (possibly having weapons) and no way out, I think that pepper spray mixed with my martial arts training would be my best bet out that situation (even more than if I were carrying a gun).

But anyway, that just my two cents. Take it or leave it.
_________________
Self Defense Products To Protect You and Your Family
www.projectsecuritycorp.com

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject:

ROFLMAO!!! No one who has ever learned to properly fight with a knife would say it slows you down, relative to empty hands. Relatively speaking, empty-hands slows down your footwork because strikes require you to transfer force into the person. You need axis in order to hit effectively. A slashing knife, which requires far less force to be effective, allows you to move far more fluidly and presents a HUGE advantage when fighting multiple opponents in a lethal force situation. The same is true of a baton, which both multiplies force and engages qualitatively different power bases than empty-hand striking.

"Are you trying fighting to the death? I sure hope not, unless your trying to go to jail." You cannot seriously be that stupid. If you are fighting to the death in a self-defence situation, you are doing so to save your own life. All liberal democracies, and most nation-states in the world, have legal provisions for the use of force in self-defence so long as the force 1) parallels the danger and/or 2) is not more than necessary to prevent harm to self.

Oddly (and sadly) some folks' "two cents" is worth a whole lot less than others'. But I do agree with your most important point--that pepper spray is a good option for moderate-level threats, with good tactical characteristics, moderate efficacy and very low risk of lethality.
_________________
blowjoblessons@gmail.com

GIRLS ONLY! Guaranteed results! FREE FACIAL or PEARL NECKLACE with every lesson!

vietdao · Registered User Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 14

I do agree that slicing techniques are much quicker than stabbing techniques, and I definately agree that in most situations a knife or baton, when properly used can be more effective then most hand to hand. Personally, as a defense weapon, I prefer a baton over a knife, simply because it's easier for me to use and has a little more reach. If this were 3 or 4 guys I would say you would definately have a fighting chance with either of those weapons, maybe even with 5 guys. However, when you are dealing with 10 guys at one time, I just don't agree with the idea that a knife or baton is the best choice of weaponry in that situation.

1. In a fight with more than one person, especially with a gang. They are going to try to surround you, and with a knife or baton, if you don't break through that circle running, there's a good chance you're going to lose that fight. In my experience, it is easier to face opponents in as a straight of a line as possible. I would use a run-hide-attack method to pick them off one at a time. If you don't do that, however, my thoughts are, you are going to hurt a few of them, but ten guys will probably get the best of you.

2. If anyone has a weapon, you've got even more trouble on your hands. You said it yourself, gang members are cowards, and they usually won't fight you unless they are sure that they are going to win. So, if anyone is packing it's a whole new ball game.

Now, I don't know how you've trained or how many fights you've been in the middle of. Perhaps you are extremely excellent at what you do, and you can take out ten guys at one time with a knife or baton. If this is the case, my hats off to you. Personally, I've never seen anyone do it in a real life situation, and any instructor worth their salt would say run as fast as you can. Being that proficient takes years of training. Even trained law enforcement would quickly get to the safest destination to get help, and I guarantee you that in a situation like that their first weapon of choice is usually not going to be their baton, and definately NOT a knife. However, everyone is free to do what they want, but I think that we all can agree that in whatever dangerous situation you are in, you want something that will take your opponent down as quickly as possible so you can get out of their and call the police. If a knife or baton does that for you, I say go with the one your most comfortable using.

P.S. Yes. I also agree that you WILL NOT go to jail if it is proven that a situation is self defense. I also agree that in all life death situations, a person should fight to save their lives, even if it may result in the death of an attacker. HOWEVER, I have known and seen innocent people go to jail who have defended themselves with knives or guns, and have killed people in the process. I just wouldn't want the same to happen to anyone else on this forum. Personally, I would rather be safe than sorry, especially since I think there are non-lethal weapons that can do the job just as well and in some cases better.
_________________
Self Defense Products To Protect You and Your Family
www.projectsecuritycorp.com

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject:

HIDING??? What is this, a fucking playground? Ten guys are chasing you and you're going to duck behind a dumpster or maildrop? Oh, they'll never find you there!

Secondly, "stacking" (as you call, "lining them up") is a good strategy.... that only applies when there are very few attackers, as in two or three. Any more than that and they have no problems swarming you. With larger numbers, you "stack" by RUNNING. Moving in one direction at a high rate of speed is the only way you can place yourself at the END of the group, rather than in the middle.

If you're being attacked by ten youths, some of whom are probably known to police anyway, and they intend to do you grievous bodily harm, you stand a pretty good chance in court.
_________________
blowjoblessons@gmail.com

GIRLS ONLY! Guaranteed results! FREE FACIAL or PEARL NECKLACE with every lesson!

dakid · Registered User Joined: 27 Dec 2006 Posts: 9

Long ranged weapon or trap them -> read my post on using tight areas so they are forced to 1 on 1.

Still, just avoid it, its not worth the risk.

jonnyboy · Registered User Joined: 05 Dec 2006 Posts: 14 Location: UK

I'm not sure what KM is, but I have trained in judo, and any sane person would think twice about taking on ten guys, I mean come on, a decent black belt could probably take out three or four tops, but TEN? This aint the Matrix and anyone who thinks they stand a chance needs a reality check. I would have to agree with vietado and use a spray of some kind. In my country, noxious sprays (CS, OC and CN) are illegal for all except the police and the military. I carry a non-noxious defence spray which is actually water with a dye in it to help if you have to ID them. In this situation your main aim is not to hurt, but to escape as you know. The spray is effective because you need to be looking for something to distract or disable them long enough to escape and call the police. My personal preference would be a spray (and a strong one, I always say never be never be merciful because they won't be to you!) and a baton as they are more powerful, longer ranged and less likely to kill someone. They say that they are easier to snatch from you, but companies such as ASP have special grips which makes takeaway almost impossible, Dura-Tech I think the brand is.

Good luck mate!

vietdao · Registered User Joined: 28 Nov 2006 Posts: 14

SHG · Newbie Joined: 30 Jul 2007 Posts: 2

To avoid getting arrested...and therefore loosing your job, resources to pay
rent, resources to take care of family and or missing (messing up) college, BACK
OFF 10 FT from the attackers and go the other way.

Also AVOID STAIRS (no matter what). Stand where there is a large object between
you and the attacker.

Avoid carrying a weapon. There's all sorts of laws on POSSESSION of a weapon.
It's a BIG trap in life.

Getting arrested also may mean having to get new ID and other cards, waiting 4
months to reactivate SSI, going to the shelter to live, trouble getting a
haircut, finding a restroom, loosing your keys in property hold, dealing with
mentally ill people, needing commisary money in jail or prison.

PRIDE: Out-manuvering an opponent for say...3 minutes, avoiding contact equals
helluv manhood.

TV: Watch out for any (cartoon) show that shows hitting. It does not avoid the
legal trap, assaualt and battery. Entertainment has to change.

Avoid the LEGAL TRAPS in life, too.

Teach the kids to BACK OFF 10 feet, avoid CONTACT and go the other way.

Ted Truscott · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject:

My first post:

I've thought a bit about this topic and wrote it out:

How to Survive Random Gang Violence
_________________
Ted

Self Defence for the non-athletic.

"It is fear, not compassion, that restrains the wicked."