Self-Defense Zone: Crime Prevention & Self-Defense Forums

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We function in a wholly unregulated industry. This has its benefits and its pitfalls. I am uncomfortable with the idea that someone would try and impose certain standards, which I might not agree with, on who should be teaching self-defence, and how it should be taught. At the same times, I cringe at the really poor quality stuff that's out there, knowing that the public is usually unable to differentiate between the good stuff and the crap.

So as it stands, self-defence instructors come from a variety of backgrounds, with different ideas as to what they think qualifies them to do this work.

Some folks are just martial arts teachers who don't know the difference between self-defence and martial arts, and so they hold these mini seminars where they pick a few techniques, and jumble them up with some platitudes like "you have the right to protect yourself" "don't use excessive force" and "be aware of your surroundings".

What arts do you think best prepare a trainer to teach sd? Kickboxing? WW2 combatives? Should they have submission grappling experience? Should they have blade weapons knowledge? Shooting experience?

What about communication and teaching skills? sociology/criminology? health sciences, or human kinetics?

Do you think a person with a policing/corrections background will be more qualified? A medical/allied-health background? An education or phys ed background? Or do a lot of these people have sort of wonky perspectives that would be as much a liability as an asset? Melissa Soalt, who produced the highly-acclaimed Dr. Ruthless tapes, was a psychologist before she got into this line of work, and was just sick and tired of treating these traumatized women--so she decided to do something pro-active.

What about basic requirements? Obviously no matter a person's "style" or "profession", they should have some basic skills to do this stuff: athletic first aid is the first obvious one that comes to mind, but surely you can think of others?

There are a lot of instructor training programs that are out there, but does anyone know of any program that they would trust to accredit truly qualified teachers that you would unreservedly recommend to anyone?
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Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject:

Does anyone here strongly favour or oppose standardization or regulation? Why or why not? How could it be done?
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Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject:

As I alluded to on another thread, it may be that the solution in reality is that the incompetents will be weeded out through civil suits; I think this is an even less appealing scenario than regulation.

What do you consider ideal? What do you consider most likely?
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Guest · Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 12:33 am Post subject:

If you want to learn how to fight, have someone teach you who you KNOW can fight.

Or do what I did, spend years studding different arts and getting into fights until you are good at it.

Ed from Edmonton

Ed · Guest

I’d like to make a distinction between the ability to fight and self defense.

Self defense includes the ability to fight, but also includes other things like avoiding bad people and places, recognizing criminal activity like fraud, buying good locks for your doors and a host of other things not related to fighting but important for self defense.

Educating yourself about crime and criminals will probably protect you better than the ability to fight well. To quote Sun Tzu, “To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.”

Now for the ability to fight part of self defense, learn from someone with a proven track record of fighting. Would you take lessons on surgery from a plumber? Why would you try to learn fighting skills from a forms champion?

Ed from Edmonton

Boogie Man · Moderator Joined: 25 Jan 2005 Posts: 43

Excellent post, Ed! Nice to see that you have flexible views on self defense.

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject:

Ed, as it happens I am in Edmonton this weekend. Great post for the most part.

"Now for the ability to fight part of self defense, learn from someone with a proven track record of fighting. Would you take lessons on surgery from a plumber? Why would you try to learn fighting skills from a forms champion?"

Sounds good on paper. But the flaw in the reasoning, as I see it, is that those who have a "proven track record" are largely either limited to sanctioned fights (and therefore the transferability of training is in question) or they are in prison. The other thing to consider is as one instructor, Tony Blauer, once put it, "would you take defensive driving lessons from someone who brags about how many car accidents he's been in?" Operative word being, "brags about".

You and I are Canadians. What about Americans, for whom self-defence often involves carrying a firearm, and combat shooting?

Not that I don't see your point. Hopefully I'm being a devil's advocate here, not an @$$hole. I have been in ONE streetfight since grade school. ONE. And that was with someone smaller than me, a little psycho who jumped me in a parking lot. I still believe I'm a pretty damn good teacher. I fight in training and competition, and I do scenario-based simulation. I experiment and collaborate with people all over the world who do MMA, DT instruction, psych patient takedowns, etc...

Okay, let's go beyond the blindingly obvious: that a person has to be able to do the things that he claims he will teach you to do. Isn't there more that people have the right to demand of their teacher? As a "teacher", shouldn't they be expected to possess teaching (communication) skill as well?

Another thing to think about: A lot of wrestling-shoe-wearing, clipit-carrying guys with solid MMA fight records, who sound pretty "hard" and can spar a guy's face off, promote a lot of mythinformation about knife-fighting morbidities that an ER physician will be quick to correct. (My circle of friends includes a huge number of medical doctors.) Now for those of us who research, train, simulate, teach, etc. will integrate knowledge from both sources. But what of the regular joe or jane, who doesn't want to spend a significant part of his or her life getting involved in understanding violent crime? How is it that there is no protection or quality assurance for the consumer in this domain?

The issue of epistemology is one thing, the matter of industry regulation is entirely another.
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Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject:

Don't take me the wrong way, man. You're posting good stuff. But this place is boring as #### and so I'm just trying to make drama.
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Ed · Guest

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:52 am Post subject:

Interesting comments. Know something about Blauer that I don't?
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Ed · Guest

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject:

I think you may have minsinterpreted a statement of his--he tends to speak in a fairly convoluted way. I knew the guy personally some years ago; I know for a fact that he used to get into plenty of fights a lot as a teen and young adult. He also produced a couple kickboxing title holders.

A lot of people (including myself) have had criticisms of his personality, politics, presentation, and business practices, but I've never heard anyone talk smack about the guy's material. Burton Richardson and yes, SBG's President Matt Thornton have all publicly stated that they believe he is the cutting edge. I dunno how far your "chain of trust" goes, but to me, when BR and MT both speak highly of someone I listen. If you're familiar with Jerry Wetzel (Centerline Gym and RedZone) he gives Blauer respects too.

Now I'm not as big a Blauer fan as I was five years ago, but if he's an "obvious BS artist", then these guys are all chumps.

A quick visit to the ASLET site tells me they've discontinued their Seal of Approval program, but at the time that Real Self-Defense Center was affiliated with Blauer, he was the ONLY general DT instructor who received this recognition. If you wanna talk about a professsion-ful people who get into fights for a living, cops would be one.

I don't have a membership at Bullshido, I dunno if they have an internal search function. A general Google search of Bullshido AND Blauer gave me nothing.

Just some things to think about.

The RSDC is no longer associated with Blauer Tactical, but only because of business reasons. They are an SBG affiliate at this time.
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Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject:

"In every post I have written regarding Tony's material it has always been complimentary." - Matt Thornton

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?ac=ListMessages&PID=1&TID=446042&FID=18&p=18

Google tells me you may be basing your opinion on a thread started by the Australian fighter JohnnyS. His description of the event 14 years ago is widely disputed--note the way he describes the SPEAR is simply bizarre.

I'm no friend of Blauer. IMO he kind of screwed my instructor, and many consider him pompous, obnoxious, defensive, and greedy. (My own opinions on his personal character are not for public discussion.) However, I do think that he has developed a lot of very good stuff that should be integrated into SD training, so I want to set the record straight on in that sense.
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Ed · Guest

First off your argument is logically flawed.

But like I said I’m not really interested in arguing about Blauer. I’m basing my opinion on what Blauer has said in print not what other people have said about him.

Blowjob Lessons · Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:22 pm Post subject:

lol You're imputing an argument that I'm not making whatsoever.

Dude, I took plenty of logic when I was in undergrad. To cite the very page you linked:

Conditions for a legitimate argument from authority

Any argument should ideally be based solely on direct evidence and the argument itself, not on the authority of the messenger drawing the conclusion from the evidence. However, it is rarely possible in common discourse to provide all the direct evidence, so an "appeal to authority" is often used as a shortcut:

* The authority must have competence in an area, not just glamour, prestige, rank or popularity. A sports or entertainment figure making claims about foreign policy is an example of how this rule is frequently violated.
* The judgment must be within the authority's field of competence. Linus Pauling won a Nobel Prize for chemistry, then later made claims that massive quantities of vitamin C would prevent cancer in humans. This claim was in the field of medicine and thus outside his field of competence.
* The authority must be interpreted correctly. This is particularly a problem in religion; where the Koran, Bible, Torah, etc., have been interpreted with varying and sometimes contradictory results.
* Direct evidence must be available, at least in principle.
* The expert should be reasonably unbiased (not unduly influenced by other factors, such as money, political considerations, or religious beliefs). This is why appealing to one's own authority is always illegitimate. The Pope claiming that the Sun revolved around the Earth was an example of an authority making a false claim biased by their religious beliefs.
* The judgment must be representative of expert opinions on the issue (as opposed to an unrepresentative sample). Lawyers sometimes find a non-representative "expert" to offer a theory which is not generally accepted (such as a so-called Twinkie defense) in hopes of winning their case.
* A technique is needed to adjudicate disagreements among equally qualified authorities. If scientific testing of the claim is not possible, then the majority of expert opinions is sometimes used to develop a consensus.

PWN3D!!!

Learn the terms before you use 'em, man!

"But like I said I’m not really interested in arguing about Blauer. I’m basing my opinion on what Blauer has said in print not what other people have said about him."

Okay, I was just commenting on this:

"I’m not going to argue with you over such an obvious BS artist. The people at Bullshido do a good job of that."

I happened to see that page, when you take the fact that one particular BJJ black belt had all kinds of trash to say about him, and then a bunch of guys who know nothing about the situation chime in saying "way to own that guy" and "I bet that fool...", you get a "group polarization"/"forum halo effect" that really isn't based on any facts.

Anyway, I really shouldn't go too out of my way to make the point. I'm on friend of Blauer's and have no financial interest in promoting him. It's the last you'll hear out of me on him.
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